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Старый 23-05-2010, 05:49   #861
Lau
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Rubis / Amethyste performances modification request :

Speed : 29 kts Rubis / 32 kts Amethyste (For game play like los flt III)
Max depth : 500 m for both hulls (for game play like los Flt III)
Sonar : Equivalent to los Flt III for game play
Noise radiation : Equivalent to los Flt I for Amethyste / For Rubis in between Alfa and Akula I

Information based on enslited personnel not giving real figures but figures that will be closer to reality than existing parameters in RAmod.

FTL torpedoes are a reality in french navy it is just a matter of time. Lets not sacrifice game play
F17 mod 2 are out of date and will soon be replaced
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Старый 23-05-2010, 11:57   #862
goldorak
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Smile

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Hi, goldorak it's nemo from MS-team.

How are you?

Sorry but i can not agree with this...
Each submarine goes in "IPER"...you really think that in 20 years we have not improved our submarines while he was in drydock..??

Obviously a Améthyste is not equal to a virginia or seawolf, but for the noise he was equal to an 688flt II.
Currently we are install the latest sonar suite on the Améthyste class for tracking the AIP submarine So I think we just consider that the capacity will be higher than that people think.

Hi Nemo,

I'm great thanks for asking.

I knew you would not agree with me. I should have been more precise then, the basic design is old. You can only enhance so much before you start reaching diminishing returns and have to design a whole new unit. No amount of modernisation can bring a Rubis to Virgina or Seawolf class status.
No matter how whishfull one is. If it were possibile then navies would just continue to improve on old designs. And thats not how it works.

On the other hand, having correct "values" for the Rubis in DW is a must. So if you have found that the values that are being used are totally incorrect then by all means give the modders the "more or less correct values". I'm sure they would be happy to comply with such a request.

For the weapons, it is what it is. The Rubis class will never ever have the Black Shark. And as someone on mille-sabords noted, the mod makes the F 17 torpedo in the game more deadly than its real counterpart.

Correcting the Rubis is a must, putting fantasy weapons on it is not.

So we are left with players wanting a french unit that carries the black shark (a heavyweight ASW/AsuW torpedo). Inserting in the game the Suffren class as cool as it would be, from a realistic point of view doesn't make a lot of sense since its not even being built. Its a concept, yes it will be the french navy next generation SSN. But not right now and not for several more years.

The only other french sub that carries the black shark and is operational is the Scorpene class. Now before Lau comes in and says that he doesn't want another Agosta class sub (but the game doesn't have Agosta class playable subs dear Lau), all modern diesel electric subs (Kilos excluded) in the game are modeled as nuclear subs. The reason being that its the only way to make them access the towed array. The only difference between real nuclear subs and fake nuclear subs in the game is the top speed. So for all pratical purposes, the Harushio, the Collins, the Type 212 are castrated nuclear subs. They have no battery penalty etc... And neither would a hypothetical Scorpene. The only limit it would have would be its top speed obviously.

I'd say that the Scorpene class makes much more sense in DW than the Barracuda class.

To finish, the Red October is a fantasy unit and you're correct on that point Lau. But the modders didn't just put the Red October, they also put real life like Typhoons for realistic missions. The Red October is present as an homage to a great film (that talks about submarines). Its like having Jules Verne's Nautilus in the game. Not realistic, but just fun to have. Last week Betasom designed a mission to relive the Hunt for the Red October. And what better place than to use the Red October model ? And a great mission it was.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 12:39   #863
MSNemo
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Hi goldorak

My speech is not in order to include a suffren or BlackShark, or put a ruby equal to a Seawolf.
For me the most important thing is get closer to reality as possible without compromising the gameplay

At first it is necessary to differentiate the class ruby of Class amethyste
The Amethyste is more efficient.
And the ruby class has been improved to the amethyste standard during IPER

In fact each submarine of the same class is different from each other and they are not necessarily the same capacities.
Ex: some los angeles FLT II go to 30 kts and the other at 35kts and yet they are all FLTII

It is the role of the modder to find a compromise between the best submarine of a class and the worst.

That's why I propose the following settings for amethyste:
For the noise radiation they are the equivalent of a 688 FLT II
For speed and immersion it's 30kt 500M
It's the average between the best of our SNA and the "worst"

For info: A améthyste carry 18 weapons, 14 in stock 4 in tubes.
It's a mix between F17Mod2/SM-39/mine..........and the head of Zidane Normally each SNA carries 2 blackshark and 4 for the SNLE...But I've never seen so I can not say.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 13:13   #864
Lau
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Сообщение от goldorak Посмотреть сообщение
Hi Nemo,

I'm great thanks for asking.

I knew you would not agree with me. I should have been more precise then, the basic design is old. You can only enhance so much before you start reaching diminishing returns and have to design a whole new unit. No amount of modernisation can bring a Rubis to Virgina or Seawolf class status.
No matter how whishfull one is. If it were possibile then navies would just continue to improve on old designs. And thats not how it works.
Who said we want Rubis to become Seawolf or Virginia This is why we are asking for the type Suffren, which is something you asked to the moders some time ago, you did this because it makes sence with current platforms in game. + As CrazyIvan said we do not know when will be next release of RAmod and it does not cost anything, just time...

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On the other hand, having correct "values" for the Rubis in DW is a must. So if you have found that the values that are being used are totally incorrect then by all means give the modders the "more or less correct values". I'm sure they would be happy to comply with such a request.
Values posted already by me and re-posted by Nemo

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For the weapons, it is what it is. The Rubis class will never ever have the Black Shark. And as someone on mille-sabords noted, the mod makes the F 17 torpedo in the game more deadly than its real counterpart.

Correcting the Rubis is a must, putting fantasy weapons on it is not.
You are right, actually is both Rubis and Amethyste parameters that need correction as I already posted

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So we are left with players wanting a french unit that carries the black shark (a heavyweight ASW/AsuW torpedo). Inserting in the game the Suffren class as cool as it would be, from a realistic point of view doesn't make a lot of sense since its not even being built. Its a concept, yes it will be the french navy next generation SSN. But not right now and not for several more years.
Yes you are right and this is mainly due to the fact that there are no more wars putting at risk France. Have an Akula or Seawolf slurking the French Mediterranean coast like it often happens in RAmod and you will see if the Suffren is not built in a week with blacksharks on it

You are talking about realism and I talk about realism + game play (we are not far away)

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The only other french sub that carries the black shark and is operational is the Scorpene class. Now before Lau comes in and says that he doesn't want another Agosta class sub (but the game doesn't have Agosta class playable subs dear Lau)
Sorry Goldorak, but you missed my point, I am talking about the hull and not the engine. If I remember well you read and speak french, so be my guest and read :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_Rubis


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, all modern diesel electric subs (Kilos excluded) in the game are modeled as nuclear subs. The reason being that its the only way to make them access the towed array. The only difference between real nuclear subs and fake nuclear subs in the game is the top speed. So for all pratical purposes, the Harushio, the Collins, the Type 212 are castrated nuclear subs. They have no battery penalty etc... And neither would a hypothetical Scorpene. The only limit it would have would be its top speed obviously.
This I know and you are correct

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I'd say that the Scorpene class makes much more sense in DW than the Barracuda class.
A french SSK will be nice, but will not fullfill our real needs with regards to modern warfare, on the other side Suffren will

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To finish, the Red October is a fantasy unit and you're correct on that point Lau. But the modders didn't just put the Red October, they also put real life like Typhoons for realistic missions. The Red October is present as an homage to a great film (that talks about submarines). Its like having Jules Verne's Nautilus in the game. Not realistic, but just fun to have. Last week Betasom designed a mission to relive the Hunt for the Red October. And what better place than to use the Red October model ? And a great mission it was.
Ok, I love The Hunt for Red October and you are tuching an interesting point it is for the fun of the community and the modders, so will be the Suffren with Blacksharks or lets call them FTL (Future Torpille Lourde), which are milles beyond realism and a very close reality in wikipedia...

You know dont worry, you will be allowed to use the Suffren as well during international events if you play on the french side, again it is just for game play

Greetings,

Lau

Последний раз редактировалось Lau; 23-05-2010 в 14:58.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 13:24   #865
goldorak
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Hi goldorak

My speech is not in order to include a suffren or BlackShark, or put a ruby equal to a Seawolf.
For me the most important thing is get closer to reality as possible without compromising the gameplay

At first it is necessary to differentiate the class ruby of Class amethyste
The Amethyste is more efficient.
And the ruby class has been improved to the amethyste standard during IPER

In fact each submarine of the same class is different from each other and they are not necessarily the same capacities.
Ex: some los angeles FLT II go to 30 kts and the other at 35kts and yet they are all FLTII

It is the role of the modder to find a compromise between the best submarine of a class and the worst.

That's why I propose the following settings for amethyste:
For the noise radiation they are the equivalent of a 688 FLT II
For speed and immersion it's 30kt 500M
It's the average between the best of our SNA and the "worst"
It makes sense. An average between best and worse values of the entire class.

Цитата:
For info: A améthyste carry 18 weapons, 14 in stock 4 in tubes.
It's a mix between F17Mod2/SM-39/mine..........and the head of Zidane Normally each SNA carries 2 blackshark and 4 for the SNLE...But I've never seen so I can not say.
Putting Zidane apart , I've never read that the Black Shark was being used on the Rubis/Amethyste class or on the Triomphant class. I thought they were used only on the Scorpene and then on the future Barracuda class.
Do you have some link that say otherwise ?
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Старый 23-05-2010, 14:22   #866
Lau
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It makes sense. An average between best and worse values of the entire class.



Putting Zidane apart , I've never read that the Black Shark was being used on the Rubis/Amethyste class or on the Triomphant class. I thought they were used only on the Scorpene and then on the future Barracuda class.
Do you have some link that say otherwise ?
Is everything in RAmod in books or in wikipedia ?

French are part with Italians in the developpement of the Blackshark, why would they not use it in their navy to protect their home land...?
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Старый 23-05-2010, 14:35   #867
MSNemo
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No link is just information I learned from a friend submariner.
My last trip in a SNA was a few years old and at the time there was no BlackShark.
they boarded two for testing and exercice, but probably not for operationnal use, however i think(hope) the cdt is not stupide and if he must engage another submarine, he use in priority the BS because the F17 is really bad...
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Старый 23-05-2010, 16:36   #868
dd149
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Bug report on detection

With Sturgeon long:
At 7nm cruise ship moving 15kts no visual clue on the waterfall when switched to spherical array. (but nois is present)
Contact is seen on broadband only on the lower display (with higher time compressions)
contact can be maintained on narrowband

You need to be closer than 5nm to see a fiant line appear at last...

Is this due to some hard coding or to the noise scale in database in you opinion?
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Старый 23-05-2010, 19:04   #869
kpv1974
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I think that addition of non-existing units to game is wrong thing. better add enterprise from startreck! for game-play!
startrek.

i want to drive Sierra-class submarines. this type REALLY EXIST instead of suffern. but this perfect submarine not included to addon!
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Старый 23-05-2010, 19:32   #870
cayman
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I think that addition of non-existing units to game is wrong thing. better add enterprise from startreck! for game-play!
startrek.

i want to drive Sierra-class submarines. this type REALLY EXIST instead of suffern. but this perfect submarine not included to addon!
Sierra-class is almost perfect, but it is not the major part in Russian sub-force, besides, there already so many Rus-subs in DWX, other part of world should have some place in the game-------I think, French design is elegance and unique , we should have a taste
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Старый 23-05-2010, 19:56   #871
dyshman
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yeah, is very "elegance and unique"))) see advantages and dis-advantages of rubis below:
adv: small, based on agosta hull-type.
-low costs of building and exploitation
dis-adv:
-small, not anough free space for modernization and new equipment.
- small operational depth (no more than 350 meters)
- absence of anti-sonar coatings (evidences of russian navy-officers, during joint exercises)
- hight lewel of magnetic field (the same source)
-only four torpedo tubes
-high noise lewel
some russians experts compare rubis to november-class. is only good torpedoes gives rubis advantages against november.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 21:09   #872
Lau
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Sierra-class is almost perfect, but it is not the major part in Russian sub-force, besides, there already so many Rus-subs in DWX, other part of world should have some place in the game-------I think, French design is elegance and unique , we should have a taste
Suffren, first construction steps started in dec 2007

Video http://www.corlobe.tk/article6955.html
Article http://www.corlobe.tk/article6953.html (French)
Article http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4158841 (English)

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So we are left with players wanting a french unit that carries the black shark (a heavyweight ASW/AsuW torpedo). Inserting in the game the Suffren class as cool as it would be, from a realistic point of view doesn't make a lot of sense since its not even being built. Its a concept, yes it will be the french navy next generation SSN. But not right now and not for several more years.
Who said Suffren is utopia...
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Последний раз редактировалось Lau; 23-05-2010 в 22:28.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 21:37   #873
MSNemo
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-small, not anough free space for modernization and new equipment.
Considering the miniaturization of electronics that was a false problem

- small operational depth (no more than 350 meters)
No it's 500m, 350m and 25 kts are the maximum admit during peace time

- absence of anti-sonar coatings (evidences of russian navy-officers, during joint exercises)
Correct


- hight lewel of magnetic field (the same source)
correct

-only four torpedo tubes
correct
-high noise lewel
Only at high speed

some russians experts compare rubis to november-class. is only good torpedoes gives rubis advantages against november.

If you would know if a submarine has a pumpjet or not here is a lot of pictures http://forummarine.forumactif.com/fr...a-t4089-30.htm
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Старый 23-05-2010, 22:27   #874
dd149
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Good points Nemo waiwe the flag.
The acoustic detection suite of the French subs is not as bad as other characteristics, being selected over German competition quite often by Diesel sub buyers.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 22:35   #875
dyshman
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i mean Rubis not sufren when i've compared. of course, sufren will be perfect and functional, but it will in 2016. i think, that mod-team should include only existing and "well known" subs, not perspective. may be, sufren,like rubis, firstly will have some problems (its usual situation with newest types of any mechanisms) i perfectly understand, it just game, but "simulator", how can we simulate non-existing subs? may be we'll want to add some russian perspective subs, like graney or borey, or others unrealesed projects like "957-Kedr" or "958-Afalina"?
personally i'm prefare drive old subs, like victors of sturgeons. it help me to think much and be patient.
does we are guilty what France built only 3 types of nuclear subs? if you want to win your battles, use old designs against rubis, as she was constructed against victors of charlies.
lets add to the game dark-star, only for gameplay!!!
now we only have awesome pictures of sufren insted of really existed graney, which will be launched within month.
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Старый 23-05-2010, 23:02   #876
Lau
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i perfectly understand, it just game, but "simulator", how can we simulate non-existing subs?
Sorry to say it again but you do not seem to read all posts, what about RED OCTOBER? Startreck... I say this but I have nothing against this idea, I feel it is so nice to be able to play as Ramius from time to time. Plus I have big projects of multistation games with fully crewed subs to revive The Hunt of Red October during international events. I am just waiting for the new release of RAmod to come in order to build scenario

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may be we'll want to add some russian perspective subs, like graney or borey, or others unrealesed projects like "957-Kedr" or "958-Afalina"?
Personally I would have nothing against it, after all we all build the scenarios according to our needs. It is not because a platform is in the data base that you need to use it. Can you think a little about the others in your perspective of things

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personally i'm prefare drive old subs, like victors of sturgeons. it help me to think much and be patient. does we are guilty what France built only 3 types of nuclear subs? if you want to win your battles, use old designs against rubis, as she was constructed against victors of charlies.
Yes we already do this in order to use the French sub kindly designed by the RA team, really even if their performances are not correctly modeled we really enjoy them. As Goldorack said, we need to strive for players to stop using the same 1-2 platforms all the time. Personally I fight for this idea every day, using the French Sub vs more modern units, its a good way to become a good captain as when you get in more recent sub...

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lets add to the game dark-star, only for gameplay!!!
now we only have awesome pictures of sufren insted of really existed graney, which will be launched within month.
We only made a request to the RAmoders and we are doing our best to provide you with the best information we can, also explaining the reasons of our motivations which are more legitime than only a startreck story.

You are not the one playing with very low performances sub, belive me if all Russian or American subs had the same problem we French have, I am sure you will be on our side.

By the way the invitation to join our games was serious, we need more players willing to play in Victor I, II

Greetings,

Lau
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Старый 23-05-2010, 23:08   #877
dd149
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Bug report

When playing with Amethyste, and probably also Rubis, we experience game crash after variable time, but seems to occur in any case.
Do you think that a particular characteristic of these new playables may cause it? Solved by a fix in the interfaces that was not installed by one of the players, please consider this bug settled, thanks to te team for the fix.

By the way may we get some information on the work in progress after you fixed the "flying icebergs"?

Последний раз редактировалось dd149; 24-05-2010 в 11:51.
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Старый 24-05-2010, 00:46   #878
goldorak
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If you would know if a submarine has a pumpjet or not here is a lot of pictures http://forummarine.forumactif.com/fr...a-t4089-30.htm

that forum is a real treasure trove.
I've bookmarked it and started reading some threads. Real cool stuff.

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Старый 24-05-2010, 11:03   #879
dd149
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that forum is a real treasure trove.
I've bookmarked it and started reading some threads. Real cool stuff.

Same here
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Старый 24-05-2010, 11:35   #880
kpv1974
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http://www.simhq.com/_naval/naval_021c.html
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