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Старый 13-12-2008, 23:58   #41
suBB
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dynamic MP

Subject: Dynamic MP

Hey,

At this point I’m going to wait until next version release before I start actually building mission scenarios, but right now I can go ahead and start planning / layout.

But 1st I would like to chat about the concept of dynamic MP and what you think about ways it could possibly be enhanced.

Then…

Shortly before DW came out I’ve often had a growing irritation with DM gameplay and most mission based scenarios in DW. The problem is the level of predictably; damn near on the high end most of the time. Especially after playing the same mission map at least three times, and could pretty much know where the opposing platform is or the general approach from a target platform. Even worse, transiting a short while (or distance) and detecting the exact same platform most of the time. Under such playing conditions, there really wasn’t any requirement of thought anymore behind the experience. For me, DW became mechanical and I then grew bored with it altogether.

I pondered a way to counter the irritation and make the experience much more worth the while, yet always offer something new to look forward to each time the scenario is played. Long story short, I realized that the more predictability can be reduced – the more dynamic the scenario can be – and the level of predictability can be reduced through editing. All of a sudden.. volia …the concept of dynamic MP.

Now…

The concept of dynamic MP was made to give freedom of thought and movement in the scenario, but at the cost of your own actions and choices you make (collectively in some cases), while in the same time, ensure playability of the scenario within a reasonable time. I have a criteria I currently use and we can get into details if you like. I really would like to see more dynamic MP scenarios from others as well.

Since April / 2006, I’ve pondered and tested this concept and the results are conclusive; dynamic MP is a reality and it can be done. There are working examples of this concept as playable MP scenarios I’ve released, in fact the only MP scenarios I’ve released. The most recent release = most refined concept.

From experience, tons of testing and actual MP performance, I can tell you quite a few factors that can generate and maintain dynamic MP, but the main ingredients are the human element and predictability suppression. Predictability cannot be 100% removed, but it can be suppressed in such a way that each time the same scenario is played, in the same platform, you will be relying mainly on your best judgment and core experience to carry out your mission, while contending with the factor of ‘the unknown’ and your best means of staying abreast of your current situation.

But, I must warn you, such a scenario does not appeal to neither DM style gameplay, nor the one who seeks ‘guaranteed positive results’ all the time in a scenario. Under these conditions, anything can happen at anytime that can sway your chances of success and successful outcome of ownside is subject to planning and strategy and how well / poor the opposing sides’ efforts are countered

Since not everyone will appreciate such a scenario, by default, like any other scenario, you will always have an audience that will.

So, please, think for a moment… what do you think that can be done to reduce predictability in a MP scenario???

Have some AARs of dynamic MP if interested.. just need to find them..

thx
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Старый 14-12-2008, 14:55   #42
CrazyIvan
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Variable platform issued in mission, random start position, any triggers of different events (random time triggered).

Actually you should have dynamic groups - and their random inclusion will give effect of unpredictability.
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Старый 14-12-2008, 15:11   #43
CrazyIvan
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Сообщение от goldorak Посмотреть сообщение
I was playing with the typhoon and I noticed that in the fire control station, when you go to set the different presets for the torpedos, the RTE (run to enable) field is expressed in Nmi. Shouldn't it be expressed in yards ?
NMI is is written down for ASW of misile - and it only label.

The torpedos use yards, and ASW of missile - NMI.

The base interface from 688 - therefore metric presets same as there - in yards instead of meters.

Rather ASW of a missile - distance in NMI, though for this purpose the interface writes - NMI.

For ASW of missiles, by any boats distance for ASW in miles instead of yards (kilos, akulas) - all ASW missile in NMI.
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Старый 17-12-2008, 22:19   #44
goldorak
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Question

Hi CrazyIvan,

I have a general question, not specifically about DWX mod but about mods in general, is it possibile to give diesel electric subs (kilo, lada, etc...) maybe a towed array and a waa ? In real life, sub such as the french equiavlent of the type 212 and even the type 212 have towed arrays and waa. If it were possibile, then these subs in the game should use the interfaces of the seawolf correct ?
Is there a way to use the kilo interface and still give diesel electric subs a towed array and waa ?
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Старый 18-12-2008, 02:20   #45
Alex_SN
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Hi all

Im very glad to enter finally this forum after many attempts, thanks to the sysop for his patience

Im a member of Simulacionnaval.com (SN) and we are very interested in the development of this mod, we are a community that keeps on playing multiplayer dw, it would be very interesting to play one day all together for fun and testing. We wait for news of the last version of the mod

Приветствие с Испании во всех русских товарищей

Alex
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Старый 18-12-2008, 09:19   #46
suBB
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Сообщение от CrazyIvan Посмотреть сообщение
Variable platform issued in mission, random start position, any triggers of different events (random time triggered).

Actually you should have dynamic groups - and their random inclusion will give effect of unpredictability.
Hey CrazyIvan,

Sorry for late response, I needed to gather my thoughts 1st

Variable platforms:

I agree with you, but the thing about variable platforms, is, I think in a mission MP scenario, platforms should be assigned to commanders(players) to carry out a mission. I would imagine that is how it would be in a realistic situation. The commander is assigned to a pre-selected asset by higher ranking officials, both which are expendable should the mission fail. The only choice then, for the commander to make is if he / she accepts the mission or not. Even still, I think fixed platform assignment does contribute to randomness because not everyone handles the same platform the same way and everybody has different levels of core experience.

Here is a list of some other things I think can reduce predictability in a MP mission scenario. All of these can be done using the editor. You’ll need a ‘reasonable’ window of time the scenario can last. I currently make scenarios that can run up to 4.5 hours as mission objective MP scenarios.

A.. Core experience

Varying levels of player experience is definitely a contributing factor to randomness. People will control and operate their platform different from anyone else. I think RA will increase randomness that much more since we have new playables to learn and operate.

B.. Random time triggering(like you mentioned)

This can be used to generate random intelligence within the time window of the scenario. The time intelligence could be generated will be 0 – 4.5 hours, where 0 means you may never even get an intelligence update at all, yet and still, the player(s) still need to rely on core experience to carry on. In a mission scenario, a lot can happen(if it does) in less than 4.5 hours that can sway the tide of the session at any given moment in any direction.

C.. Random quality of intelligence

I’m testing this concept but what I have in mind is random location of a hard target or object, which would generate random quality of intelligence received. For example, you may receive intelligence to deploy missiles to a target or coordinates to pick up personnel, but the validity of the intelligence(actual location of objects) can create a dynamic environment under those conditions for opposing sides. Still I need to test this concept, but it has potential.

D.. Random spawn box for platforms

Definitely this is a requirement but subject to the scenario design. For mission I have in mind, RSB also needs to be outside detection ranges of opposing platforms, yet the scenario design needs to allow for transiting of at least one platform, the possibility of detection to occur, where opposing sides have a base chance of 50% of detecting each other. Base chance detection can be done, just need to be optimized for MP.

E.. Random departure / arrival times

To me it is not realistic to spawn aircraft out of mid air and have it searching the area immediately. So for that reason playable aircraft will depart from airbases inland. Using dynamic group can allow us to randomly place airbase and platforms anywhere we want, and when we randomize the departure, we then randomize the arrival times also. Plus, core experience of pilot will contribute to even more randomness. Even if using AI aircraft and waypoint assignment tied to random search, using (F+B) does equate to (E).

F.. Dynamic groups

To me it’s not realistic to spawn platforms or items (buoys, mines, etc ) out of thin air. So spawning platforms are combination of (D+E) and items like buoys and mines are subject to (E) depending on control of playables.

Another reason for dynamic groups is random spawn of playables in formation. You can’t randomly spawn playables in formation using RSB, so they have to be assigned to dynamic group and it will work. Example is a FFG with helos deployed and transiting while in formation. Since we can’t have human pilots deploy from human FFG in MP, we will have to spawn the helo along with the surface playable, using dynamic group allows us to do it randomly in location while units are in formation.

G.. Mission status left out

This prevents players from plotting around incomplete goals listed in mission status. Since mission status will be left out, players will have to rely on core experience and attention to detail to carry out mission tasking. This can be done by leaving the fields blank on the playable platforms. To announce mission outcome I use custom audios as global indication of mission result to both sides.

H.. Random accidents / damage systems

I learned this lesson from OKO where you can use triggering to simulate brief equipment failure or unexpected events on your platform that would need to be accommodated for, like reactor powerplant failure on a submarine and the consequences if negligence comes into play. Having to accommodate for immediate needs can contribute to a immediate change of direction of the session at any moment.

*****

For now that’s all I can think of for the moment… off to a good start!!..
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Старый 18-12-2008, 17:43   #47
CrazyIvan
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Сообщение от goldorak Посмотреть сообщение
Hi CrazyIvan,

I have a general question, not specifically about DWX mod but about mods in general, is it possibile to give diesel electric subs (kilo, lada, etc...) maybe a towed array and a waa ? In real life, sub such as the french equiavlent of the type 212 and even the type 212 have towed arrays and waa. If it were possibile, then these subs in the game should use the interfaces of the seawolf correct ?
Is there a way to use the kilo interface and still give diesel electric subs a towed array and waa ?
Probably it is incompatible - diesel boat and towed array.

Getting TA, we shall lose diesel motors.
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Старый 25-12-2008, 18:11   #48
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Victor-III "SS-N-22 Sunburn" was removed from an internal tubes.
Now is displaced to the external container and is present only in quantity of one missile.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Мк-48 ADCAP: the algorithm of scanning sectors, will be reconsidered in a near future.
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Старый 26-12-2008, 07:02   #49
MR.Wood
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Smile

Is there a way you can put a pair of nuclear torpedoes on russian subs. Also have you guys thought about adding the Project 877V diesel-electric submarine with a pump jet propulsion. Alrosa http://www.alrosa.net/photos/_1995_02.htm http://www.alrosa.net/photos/_2005_12_10_05.htm http://www.alrosa.net/photos/_2005_12_10_04.htm
Would be a cool new playable. Are you guys planing to add more playables I heard about a max mast problem. If this is true I know of a way to get around it. Make a copy of the Database for RA mod and add new playables. Same DB list just new playbles like RA Mod Pk 1 and for the other playables make it RA mod pk2.I know it takes more memory but I think its worth it since SCS doesn't have a problem with mods.

Последний раз редактировалось MR.Wood; 26-12-2008 в 09:41.
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Старый 26-12-2008, 14:37   #50
CrazyIvan
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Not clearly what problem with masts you have in view of?

I do not find out any problems with masts, except for unique - mast the virtual device but not object of a database, therefore is unable to counterdetection (as sample - with RADAR ).
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Старый 26-12-2008, 21:27   #51
MR.Wood
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someone sent me a message at subsim.com fourm and said that we could have no more playables do to using up all the mast all ready.
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Старый 27-12-2008, 01:39   #52
CrazyIvan
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This problem is decided - and much easier.

We can add a plenty playables units.
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Старый 27-12-2008, 03:55   #53
MR.Wood
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Thats great can I give an Idea for a few new units. How about a November SSN, Upholder SSK, maybe a Collins SSK Ohio SSGN with ASDV and dry dock shelter on deck,maybe a Yankee SSBN, and some new piers for our Russian boomer like 1000' long 50' wide concrete pier. Just some ideas and maybe some US DDG and Soviet DDG's And ffgs
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Старый 27-12-2008, 08:51   #54
goldorak
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Since Mr.Wood expressed his wishlist, here's mine : we definitely need a western ssk, a Type 212 would be cool.
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Старый 28-12-2008, 01:23   #55
CrazyIvan
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Since Mr.Wood expressed his wishlist, here's mine : we definitely need a western ssk, a Type 212 would be cool.
Goldorak - I agree, there is a large lack European (not of the Russian platforms.)

But - It is necessary to decide a problem of a towed sensor control.
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Старый 28-12-2008, 23:25   #56
goldorak
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Cool

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Goldorak - I agree, there is a large lack European (not of the Russian platforms.)

But - It is necessary to decide a problem of a towed sensor control.


Yep, there is the problem of the towed array.
As I understand we either use the kilo "interface" to simulate a diesel electric engine and therefore forget about the towed array (since the interface doesn't have one), or we choose to use the "nuclear sub" interface so to get the towed array but in this case we forget about the diesel electric engine.
So what would we choose ? All I can say is that there is no perfect solution, we should get a compromise.
As far as I'm concerned the type 212 should definiteley have the towed array in the game (since in real life is has one, as it has a raploc feature etc...). If we choose therefore to enable a towed array we have to "simulate" a diesel electric engine within the constraints of the "nuclear sub" interface. We can't limit the range (at least I don't think so) BUT we can limit the maximum speed, lets say to 20 knots. So we would end up with a sub that has a towed array, it maximum speed would be 20 knots (the same of other diesel electric subs such as the kilo), the range would not be constrained, but within the missions we play either single or multiplayer, really what time frame are we talking about ? 3-4 hours of gameplay ? We would never notice the range constraint within such a timeframe. So the solution is a good one.
The only problem I see, is players using the sub always at maximum speed (20 knots). Of course if it used the real diesel electric interface, the batteries would deplete very rapidly, whereas if we use the "nuclear sub interface" there is no depletion, so the player can run for 3-4+ hours at maximum speed without any kind of penalty.
The other choice is to use the diesel electric interface and abbandon any hipe of ever using a towed array. Me I prefer the first solution, other people may prefer the second solution.
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Старый 13-01-2009, 02:20   #57
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Talking

Hi Guys,

This image is astounding (I think one of your members posted it on subsim forum).
In any case, the fact of having torpedo doors that can open and close is a nice thing to have. It adds to realism.
This brings me to ask you guys, I know the making all the playable subs have torpedo doors that open and close is a huge and presumably complicated and boring task. But is it possibile to do it just for the main subs, lets say the 688 flt 3, the akula 2 and the seawolf ?
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Старый 16-01-2009, 14:58   #58
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Hi Guys,

This image is astounding (I think one of your members posted it on subsim forum).
In any case, the fact of having torpedo doors that can open and close is a nice thing to have. It adds to realism.
This brings me to ask you guys, I know the making all the playable subs have torpedo doors that open and close is a huge and presumably complicated and boring task. But is it possibile to do it just for the main subs, lets say the 688 flt 3, the akula 2 and the seawolf ?
Well, we will do it!
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Старый 16-01-2009, 15:03   #59
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Is there a specialist in Seawolf`s construction? How many blades have SSN21`s propeller and pump-jet`s grate?
Is there a grate at the pump-jet`s outlet?
On how many parts are divided entrance and outlet holes of pump-jet?
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Старый 16-01-2009, 20:27   #60
goldorak
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Is there a specialist in Seawolf`s construction? How many blades have SSN21`s propeller and pump-jet`s grate?
Is there a grate at the pump-jet`s outlet?
On how many parts are divided entrance and outlet holes of pump-jet?
I'm sorry I have no idea. I looked in the book "cold war submarines" but the information is too generic. No specific details as to how many blades the seawolf has.
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