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Старый 26-11-2008, 09:46   #1
CrazyIvan
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Arrow -ReinForce Alert - worldwide discussion

Here begins feedback concerning the contents of addition -Reinforce Alert-

For our forbidden colleagues...

================================================== ========
Updated 21.09.2017
Addon Reinforce Alert ver.1.43 [~281 Mb]:
https://yadi.sk/d/EWBoBGNs3N6YtC

================================================== ========
Russian Voices Mod ( ver 1.8 ) For 1.43 DWX [28 Mb] Updated 23.07.2017:
Compatible with Reinforce Alert version 1.42 and above.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8z...?usp=drive_web

================================================== ========

01.10.2012. Updated For SubCommand (for SCX2C Modification)
12.06.2017. Updated #2 for 688 Hunter/Killer english ver. 1.05-1.07:

================================================== ======

================================================== ======
Вложения
Тип файла: 7z SubCommand_Update.7z (3.13 Мб, 2914 просмотров)
Тип файла: 7z 688HK_Update_PACK_02.7z (1.97 Мб, 221 просмотров)

Последний раз редактировалось CrazyIvan; 21-09-2017 в 15:39.
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Старый 25-06-2010, 09:58   #1001
sertore
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Hey,

1st off, want to say thanks to Crazy Ivan and RA team for such an incredible mod. I've yet to play it due to a busy schedule, but I trust Crazy Ivan and Team for quality product.

2nd.. regarding detection ranges, your SSP & bottom type affects how well / poor passive and active detection are made. Good chance is what you are seeing is normal, and you are using a bottom limited SSP, where really there isn't anywhere a submarine can hide(no layer); nothing to do with the mod itself.

If you want the affects of a layer, then choose either Convergence zone or surface duct SSP. If not, then use bottom limited.

enjoy

suBB
As you can check by yourself editing the mission attached to my post, SSP SD used with strong layer: but, in our test case, high sonar detection range are related to units in the same side of layer, where its influence is not relevant.
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Старый 25-06-2010, 10:47   #1002
suBB
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As you can check by yourself editing the mission attached to my post, SSP SD used with strong layer: but, in our test case, high sonar detection range are related to units in the same side of layer, where its influence is not relevant.
will check out your mission shortly.

In fact I need to run some det range tests as preliminary data for scenario design.

Did you install RA 1.1 'clean', as in, completely erase your previous install of DW and brand new folder. If not that could lead to instability issues.(happened to me before trying to install 1.1 over 1.0) guess I could answer my own question; to lazy to read your prior posts

In a SD SSP, increased det ranges are expected above the layer(reduced below layer) but to what degree I'm unsure of in RA. Although RA has made a great deal of changes, SSP performance is something that cannot be changed(as I recall from previous inquiry). I wish SSP worked as advertised.
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Старый 25-06-2010, 13:19   #1003
goldorak
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Hey,
2nd.. regarding detection ranges, your SSP & bottom type affects how well / poor passive and active detection are made. Good chance is what you are seeing is normal, and you are using a bottom limited SSP, where really there isn't anywhere a submarine can hide(no layer); nothing to do with the mod itself.

If you want the affects of a layer, then choose either Convergence zone or surface duct SSP. If not, then use bottom limited.

enjoy

suBB
Hey suBB,

You are 100% wrong on this one. Wether or not there is a layer, a Seawolf cannot detect a Trafalgar going at 5 knots at over 20-25 nm. There was no convergence zone and yet I got the contact. How about the Kilo at 5 knots at over 20 nm ? Is it normal ? C'mon man be serious.
Other players were getting contacts all over the place, and the same exact mission played in single player was correct in the sense that the detection ranges were "normal" all other conditions being identical to the multiplayer match. So yes there is someting wrong with how detection is made in multiplayer. And it has to be fixed.
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Старый 25-06-2010, 20:39   #1004
sertore
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Post

Let me report two interesting notes by Drakken, a Betasom trainer, about the strange sonar range sensitivity and weapon efficiency:

1) SKK noise
apart for hardcoded changes, on which we have no knowledge, seems that in the DB the value for TRUST is more high for SSK than SSN: for example, the LOS ANGELES class have a TRUST of +16, but the LADA class have +26. Now we experienced the too simple tracking of LADA even if far a lot of nms, meanwhile we LOS ANGELES is really hard to hear even if near to OS.

2) UGST efficiency (vs. MK48)
it seems that the acquisition cone for UGST is just 20°, against the 40° of MK48: the result is that in our multiplayer usually an MK48 shot is letal, and the UGST one is really poor and miss in the major part of the cases the target. Now I know that you surely set the acquisition cone really near to reality, but the playability of the game is suffering a big gap in the US/RU match: any chance to balance the weapons?

Hope this can help to improve the MOD efficiency and playability. Thanks.
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Старый 25-06-2010, 21:36   #1005
CrazyIvan
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Let me report two interesting notes by Drakken, a Betasom trainer, about the strange sonar range sensitivity and weapon efficiency:

1) SKK noise
apart for hardcoded changes, on which we have no knowledge, seems that in the DB the value for TRUST is more high for SSK than SSN: for example, the LOS ANGELES class have a TRUST of +16, but the LADA class have +26. Now we experienced the too simple tracking of LADA even if far a lot of nms, meanwhile we LOS ANGELES is really hard to hear even if near to OS.

2) UGST efficiency (vs. MK48)
it seems that the acquisition cone for UGST is just 20°, against the 40° of MK48: the result is that in our multiplayer usually an MK48 shot is letal, and the UGST one is really poor and miss in the major part of the cases the target. Now I know that you surely set the acquisition cone really near to reality, but the playability of the game is suffering a big gap in the US/RU match: any chance to balance the weapons?

Hope this can help to improve the MOD efficiency and playability. Thanks.

Noise structures were changed in new a patch. Now ,the modern diesel submarines will be more silent approximately on 30 percents.

40 degrees in ADCAP - this is a vertical cone.

PS: New the patch will arrive approximately in 3-4 days.
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Старый 26-06-2010, 01:24   #1006
goldorak
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PS: New the patch will arrive approximately in 3-4 days.
Good news.
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Старый 26-06-2010, 03:51   #1007
cayman
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Noise structures were changed in new a patch. Now ,the modern diesel submarines will be more silent approximately on 30 percents.

Yeah, that's a major improvement!
modern diesel sub are very hard to detect by passive sonar, specially the AIP subs, it's almost impossible to detect a low speed modern SSK in shallow water within reasonable range, not even by Virginia class---but that's the major situation the Nuke subs have to face with today----high speed tracing, deep open water, that belongs to cold-war era. the old-school NATO ASW system :SOSUS + P3 +Sub+Surf can't apply to today's world
that's why US navy now turning into research of Low-Frequency Active Sonar and long-range UUV HF searching for their new ASW system code-name "Seaweb"

for the same reason, US's ARLEIGH BURKE class no longer equip SQR-19 Tow Array , the UK's Duke FFG replace 2031 pass sonar array with 2087 LF Active Sonar Array

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/lfa.htm

Последний раз редактировалось cayman; 26-06-2010 в 04:11.
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Старый 26-06-2010, 09:36   #1008
suBB
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Hey suBB,

You are 100% wrong on this one. Wether or not there is a layer, a Seawolf cannot detect a Trafalgar going at 5 knots at over 20-25 nm. There was no convergence zone and yet I got the contact. How about the Kilo at 5 knots at over 20 nm ? Is it normal ? C'mon man be serious.
Other players were getting contacts all over the place, and the same exact mission played in single player was correct in the sense that the detection ranges were "normal" all other conditions being identical to the multiplayer match. So yes there is someting wrong with how detection is made in multiplayer. And it has to be fixed.
hang on, am I reading this correctly.... you are saying that REGARDLESS the SSP type, in 1.1 you are getting these detection ranges under these conditions?? If so something is definitely wrong.

back in 1.0, I asked specifically if SSP was affected by RA, the answer was no. I actually created(to better understand changes in RA) a data matrix on 1.0 based on worst case conditions (seawolf detection capability vs noisy alfa), where I did see changes in detection ranges based on SSP type vs speed vs layer vs sonar(towed, hull, sphere) while multiplayer. Results were conclusive in 1.0 in multiplayer; nothing like you are telling me now in 1.1.

when I run out of more important things to do, guess I'll fire up RA and have a look-see
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Старый 26-06-2010, 14:13   #1009
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hang on, am I reading this correctly.... you are saying that REGARDLESS the SSP type, in 1.1 you are getting these detection ranges under these conditions?? If so something is definitely wrong.

back in 1.0, I asked specifically if SSP was affected by RA, the answer was no. I actually created(to better understand changes in RA) a data matrix on 1.0 based on worst case conditions (seawolf detection capability vs noisy alfa), where I did see changes in detection ranges based on SSP type vs speed vs layer vs sonar(towed, hull, sphere) while multiplayer. Results were conclusive in 1.0 in multiplayer; nothing like you are telling me now in 1.1.

when I run out of more important things to do, guess I'll fire up RA and have a look-see

Hi suBB,

Detection ranges vary with ssp. In single player and multiplayer.
On the ther hand there is something wrong with how sensitive the sonar is in multiplayer. For instance, WITHOUT COVERGENCE ZONES, a seawolf as advanced as it is SHOULDN'T be able to detect a trafalgar or a kilo going at 5 knots for pete's sake at 25-30 nm.
Under any circumstance this should not be possibile, and unfortunately for the moment it is.

Even players on kilo and lada were able to detect contacts that were not cavitating at enormous distances. There is literally something fishy going on.

If you want to test this strange behaviour, you have to do it in multiplayer not in singleplayer were everything works as it should.
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Старый 26-06-2010, 23:51   #1010
whiskey111
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I want to ask if the message "torpedo in the water" was stricted by range. I'm asking because I still have this message whatever the range is. Is this correct ?

Afterward, something not natural is happening with german type 212 during divers launching. Submarine is going to stall (like an airplane) after divers launch and goes to bottom. But it happens only sometimes. Mostly when I was in move, not 0kts.
There is no any manual for divers operations so maybe I am doing it incorrectly.
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Старый 27-06-2010, 07:48   #1011
sertore
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Noise structures were changed in new a patch. Now ,the modern diesel submarines will be more silent approximately on 30 percents.

40 degrees in ADCAP - this is a vertical cone.

PS: New the patch will arrive approximately in 3-4 days.
Thanks for good news and support.
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Старый 28-06-2010, 02:08   #1012
whiskey111
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What is the max range 100 mm/70 (3.9") AK-100 in game ? I was able to destroy OHP from 40 km. And as I know, max range for this gun is about 21km.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRu...9-70_ak100.htm

But, I'm not an expert so please correct me.
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Старый 28-06-2010, 09:48   #1013
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Smile

Dear RA team, just finished some tests with MK48, and for another time seems to us that this torpedo is too many powerful than the other ones in the game.

I really do not know if the vertical cone in acquiring range is too high or if there is something else, but the launch of a MK48 means a target hit about 100% of time, without regards on CM and evasion tactics: they are so many good in acquiring the target that there is no way to successfully evade in the major part of the cases.

Other people is complain about that; let me report an interesting analysis found on subsim:

I have been looking at close-in (killing-zone) torpedo performance namely within 1.5nm of target.
Whether or not a mods blurb flags-up changes, often subtle tweaks occur, somewhere on the modding journey.

Under test, a 48 locked on to my sub and bit on my active cm, 300 yds from my sub, as I attempted to slip out of its 'cone.'
Spoofed it climbed to preset depth, levelled then performed a manic vertical rotation to dive verticaly on my sub.
(The cm was released and remained, at subs depth 700 ft, torp preset 100 ft. All action above layer.)

Four issues:-
1. Minimal delay from spoofing to reengagement'
2. Speed of rotation in vertical plane.
3. Exhibits a very large vertical cone.
4. Overall time/distance factor demonstrating 'hyper' sensitivity. (Climb then descend 600ft within 300yds appx.)


On the next Tuesday we will perform a final test in a multiplayer session to give you our last feelings about this issue.

Please consider our concerns for a possible change of MK48 settings, (or improve the settings of the other torpedos, especially the RU ones), to let the game more playable and balanced.

Thanks as usual for your good support.
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Старый 28-06-2010, 10:56   #1014
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@ Sertore : the excerpt you posted was made by Bellman on subsim and he was EXPLICITELY discussing LWAMI 3.10 and not RA.
The only thing he said about RA was this at the end of his post

Just for completeness :

Цитата:
I have been looking at close-in (killing-zone) torpedo performance namely within 1.5nm of target.
Whether or not a mods blurb flags-up changes, often subtle tweaks occur, somewhere on the modding journey.

Under test, a 48 locked on to my sub and bit on my active cm, 300 yds from my sub, as I attempted to slip out of its 'cone.'
Spoofed it climbed to preset depth, levelled then performed a manic vertical rotation to dive verticaly on my sub.
(The cm was released and remained, at subs depth 700 ft, torp preset 100 ft. All action above layer.)

Four issues:-
1. Minimal delay from spoofing to reengagement'
2. Speed of rotation in vertical plane.
3. Exhibits a very large vertical cone.
4. Overall time/distance factor demonstrating 'hyper' sensitivity. (Climb then descend 600ft within 300yds appx.)
This is related to how Mk 48 work is Lwami 3.10

Цитата:
However I have also observed some anomolies in RA torp/cm performance so I need to eliminate the possible effect of game
acceleration and/or Windows 7. I wonder whether anyone else may have had Windows 7 effects ? Hate to criticise
the modders excellent work, if the fault lies elsewhere.
__________________
Here he is discussing RA, but the 2 quotes are not related in any way.
He didn't actually say WHAT anomalies he found, and he thinks these anomalies are maybe linked to game acceleration and windows 7. Further testing is warrented.

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Старый 28-06-2010, 11:44   #1015
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I just get the point about subsim post: sorry for mislead information reported.

However I am continuing to think that the MK48 performance are strangely too high, as we are experiencing in Betasom multiplayers: as anticipated, we will play a dedicated test tomorrow evening and we will let you know about the results.

Thanks.
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Старый 28-06-2010, 11:54   #1016
goldorak
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@ sertore : One last thing about torpedoes :

Unless you are discussing wake homing torpedoes that are basically fire and forget, you only need care to fire them to intercept the wake of your target, there is no way for AI target ships to evade them; all other torpedoes, which means wire guided ones, such as the UGST and mk 48 when launched against human controlled units HAVE to be wireguided to the target.
You cannot expect to fire and forget and have the torpedo figure it all out.

Firing at close range, whether mk 48 or UGST the lethality is more or less the same.
At greater distances you cannot fire only in snapshot and expect to hit the target, moreso if the target is evading.
You need to steer these weapons onto the target.

The last mission Betasom played, had a player steering his mk 48 to hit the target.
The player that was hit was astounded to see the torped backtrace and hit him.
And he shouldn't be surprised.
The lethality of the UGST and Mk 48 rests entirely on the ability of the operator to bring the weapon on the target.
If you don't then even the mk 48 can miss.

Players need to learn to account for this new tactic. In other mods torpedoes had a larger acquisition cone, so you could fire in snapshot and be more or less sure of acquiring your prey.
Now its not so easy.
You need to take into account search depth, you need to take into account countermesures which have a real effect, you have to take into account maximum speed and turning radius etc...
And you have to STEER the weapon on the target.

If you don't steer the weapon on your prey the mod isn't really at fault is it ?
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Старый 28-06-2010, 13:42   #1017
sertore
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@ sertore : One last thing about torpedoes :

Unless you are discussing wake homing torpedoes that are basically fire and forget, you only need care to fire them to intercept the wake of your target, there is no way for AI target ships to evade them; all other torpedoes, which means wire guided ones, such as the UGST and mk 48 when launched against human controlled units HAVE to be wireguided to the target.
You cannot expect to fire and forget and have the torpedo figure it all out.

Firing at close range, whether mk 48 or UGST the lethality is more or less the same.
At greater distances you cannot fire only in snapshot and expect to hit the target, moreso if the target is evading.
You need to steer these weapons onto the target.

The last mission Betasom played, had a player steering his mk 48 to hit the target.
The player that was hit was astounded to see the torped backtrace and hit him.
And he shouldn't be surprised.
The lethality of the UGST and Mk 48 rests entirely on the ability of the operator to bring the weapon on the target.
If you don't then even the mk 48 can miss.

Players need to learn to account for this new tactic. In other mods torpedoes had a larger acquisition cone, so you could fire in snapshot and be more or less sure of acquiring your prey.
Now its not so easy.
You need to take into account search depth, you need to take into account countermesures which have a real effect, you have to take into account maximum speed and turning radius etc...
And you have to STEER the weapon on the target.

If you don't steer the weapon on your prey the mod isn't really at fault is it ?
Dear Goldorak, I understand your comments, do not agree but I will go along with them.

About last Betasom mission, to which I personally attended, we had a great player piloting a Los Angeles FLT III sinking three trainers (with trainers I mean people that is teaching at Betasom Accademy how to play the game to the DW addicted , with really deep knowing of submarine warfare) on Akula II and Lada: never happened, especially at really close distance (< 5nm)!
The Los Angeles was able to simply evade lot of RU unit's torpedos, instead the RU units were catch by MK48 even with tidy use of CMs and evasion tactics: my feeling is that the RU players have to stay to steer continuously their weapons while the US ones can dedicate their attention to sonars research while their torpedo are working for them... the game is not balanced at all.

In any case, if you are thinking that everything is perfect and the MOD is complete as is, please discard my comments and fix just the sound issues of SSK.

I do not want to continue to annoying you, RA people and other visitors with an not useful discussion: I will not post any other comment about the matter if not requested.

Thanks again for support.

Последний раз редактировалось sertore; 28-06-2010 в 14:04.
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Старый 29-06-2010, 04:07   #1018
whiskey111
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All Akulas have no option "promoted to link"

And something wrong is with AI surface: I turned on radar and found some ships from surface group. There were ships such as; Spruance, Ticonderoga, OHP. None of them attacked me.
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Старый 29-06-2010, 06:51   #1019
Castout
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I don't know if this has been brought up but I think I may have found a glitch on Akula II improved narrow band sonar station


If the player scan the cursor long enough left and right and keep doing that WHEN the center display is set to point South then the cursor would get stuck at some degrees. This is reproducable especially when selecting the hull and towed array.
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Старый 29-06-2010, 09:15   #1020
sertore
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Post

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All Akulas have no option "promoted to link"

And something wrong is with AI surface: I turned on radar and found some ships from surface group. There were ships such as; Spruance, Ticonderoga, OHP. None of them attacked me.
In our test no problem with promotion to link, and AI units are really fast to attack: can you please post a mission to test?
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