-ReinForce Alert - worldwide discussion

[whiskey111]

Cool, really awesome work !

[MR.Wood]

I know you guys are very busy can I bribe you into making an upholder/victora class ssk I have tons of photos and layouts for this class

[Гена]

It is not good idea about "TIW". Acoustic makes such a report immediately after torpedo is detected. This is not duty of commanding officer to search for torps. Moreover this is a highest degree of danger for sub. It must be primary, urgent report.
And it is a stupid situation, fatally stupid: acoustic is hearing torpedo noise but isn't making report. He's is just waiting until torpedo will be at 3 mile distance while commanding officer may know nothing about this mortally dangerous situation.

[goldorak]

Сообщение от Гена

It is not good idea about "TIW". Acoustic makes such a report immediately after torpedo is detected. This is not duty of commanding officer to search for torps. Moreover this is a highest degree of danger for sub. It must be primary, urgent report.
And it is a stupid situation, fatally stupid: acoustic is hearing torpedo noise but isn't making report. He's is just waiting until torpedo will be at 3 mile distance while commanding officer may know nothing about this mortally dangerous situation.

I don't agree. Monitoring the sonar station is the primary duty of a DW player, its the most important station and the only one (together with tma but this is most alwatys left on auto) that gives you a complete tactical picture.
If you're not a good enough player to descriminate civilian tracks, from possibile sub tracks, from possibile torpedo tracks well its your problem.
Does it mean playing now becomes harder ? Yes it does, but don't you like a challege when you see one ?

In any case you're still getting the TIW for subrocs launches even at great distances. But torpedo lauches are much quieter even in real life. So it makes sense to get the warning (when the weapon is near you) although you can still see the track on the sonar from far away.
Some subs such as the Type 212 don't even launch torpedoes from the inner tubes. They slide them out of the submarine on a tray and then launch them.
No compressed air is used, so its a much quieter mode of operation.

[Гена]

U don't understand me. I'm not telling about LAUNCH. I'm telling about obvious thing: torpedo noise is MUCH louder then anything around.
Usually torpedoes are found quickly, because their noise appears abruptly and has a level many times greater than the noise level of other objects. Moreover torpedoes have a specific, high tone. I think it must be some distance when any torpedo can be pretty well detected, 10 miles at least.
Is primary mission of developers to do that project as much difficult as it possible even if it is illogical? I don't like such "challenge". And sometimes i want to play as CO and take a break from hours of scanning sonarscreens. And identification of targets is difficult operation, AI can do mistakes here but not with torpedo detection. That's why you use manual sonar identification.

[whiskey111]

-to goldorak-

On the one hand is not required to make the game as difficult as it is possible. Do not forget that it must be playable Realistic not always means difficult.

If torpedo is visible on the sonar screen and not reported it's not reallistic. For example, I can be on TMA (making solution) and I can miss the torpedo launch event. Modern sub will be killed because is blind...

Torpedos are too fast to let them a chance being unspoted. And this is not possible to be all the time on sonar station because working on TMA is the key to win (as you wrote).

[Гена]

Exactly

[goldorak]

Сообщение от whiskey111

-to goldorak-

On the one hand is not required to make the game as difficult as it is possible. Do not forget that it must be playable Realistic not always means difficult.

Sure, thats why I said challenging.
There is a whole scale between arcade and pure simulation.
Getting the TIW irrespective of distance falled squarley into the arcade part of the spectrum. Now the difficult part is establishing WHEN you get a TIW.

If torpedo is visible on the sonar screen and not reported it's not reallistic. For example, I can be on TMA (making solution) and I can miss the torpedo launch event. Modern sub will be killed because is blind...

Now now lets not make it more drammatic than it seems.
You only have to be at the tma station once every 2 minutes, when the new bearing line arrives (that is if you even use manual tma in the first place).
And even then you can still understand what the contact is doing by watching the historic trace on the sonar waterfall; by watching the trace you can see wether your lagging or leading the contact. This is true on all blue side subs as well as certain red side subs that don't use the archaic SSAZ. And then when you get back to sonar, you can still look for unkown new contacts and the narrowband will give information on wether the contact is a torpedo. At 55 knots a torpedo will do 2.5 nm in 3 minutes.
If you track a sub only when he's at 2.5 nm from you thats bad.

Torpedos are too fast to let them a chance being unspoted. And this is not possible to be all the time on sonar station because working on TMA is the key to win (as you wrote).

Torpedoes are fast, but they don't cover distances instantaneously.
Having an enemy sub within 10 nm and not having tracked him is bad. And this is irrespective of a possibile enemy torpedo launch. As I said from 10 nm a torpedo a 55 knots will still need 12 minutes to get you. 12 minutes is more than enough to start thinking an evasive action tactic.

The first rule of sub warfare is : situational awareness. And that means knowing were your prey is at all times. This implies that even if you loose attention for 2 minutes (the time to update your manual tma) you won't find yourself with a torpedo on top of you.
And even then, you still will get the TIW when the torpedo is at 4nm from your sub. A safe enough distance to start evasion. Evading when the torpedo is at 10 nm doesn't make sense, you just go along a 5 knots to get out of its path. But when the torpedo is near, thats when you NEED to go evasive.
And THAT is the moment the TIW message acquires all its relevance.

[whiskey111]

I have the awesome that I hadn't a pleasure to test it. This is why my assumptions are purly hipothetical only.
1.0 version looks good so I'm in trust of devteame that they will do this by they best.

[Гена]

Сообщение от goldorak

Sure, thats why I said challenging.
There is a whole scale between arcade and pure simulation.
Getting the TIW irrespective of distance falled squarley into the arcade part of the spectrum.

Well in your case it is arcade too, because TIW irrespective of torpedo noise which is detected at tens of miles.

Сообщение от goldorak

Now the difficult part is establishing WHEN you get a TIW.

Fantastic! New mission in DW: trying to establish time of ""TIW" And what is deep meaning of "TIW" message now? It is better to remove this message completely in this case.

Сообщение от goldorak

The first rule of sub warfare is : situational awareness. And that means knowing were your prey is at all times. This implies that even if you loose attention for 2 minutes (the time to update your manual tma) you won't find yourself with a torpedo on top of you.

I don't know what is "rules of sub warfare" but i know that life of the sub and all the crew depends on each member of the crew. Including the acoustics. That's for shure. So they must not loose their attention even for 2 minutes as you said even if you're not at sonar battlestation.

Сообщение от goldorak

And even then, you still will get the TIW when the torpedo is at 4nm from your sub. A safe enough distance to start evasion. Evading when the torpedo is at 10 nm doesn't make sense, you just go along a 5 knots to get out of its path. But when the torpedo is near, thats when you NEED to go evasive.
And THAT is the moment the TIW message acquires all its relevance.

The more torpedo detecting distance the more chances you avoid. It sounds unreal that 4 nm disatance safe enough. Not for guys inside the pressure hull.
And again what is the point in this message if you are tracking torpedo by yourself? And if you're not tracking that this message is still cheat even at 3 miles distance.

[goldorak]

Сообщение от Гена

Well in your case it is arcade too, because TIW irrespective of torpedo noise which is detected at tens of miles.

No, CrazyIvan already said that for subrocs you would get a TIW message from quite far. That means that noise level AND distance are taken into account. And a subroc launch makes much more noise than a torpedo one.
So it is acceptable to get a subroc alert before a torpedo alert.

Fantastic! New mission in DW: trying to establish time of ""TIW" And what is deep meaning of "TIW" message now? It is better to remove this message completely in this case.

No if you remove completely TIW message thats not realistic one bit.
Think of it this way, you are the captain of the sub. Wether or not you're on the sonar station, on the tma station etc... there will be a moment when someone of your crew will inform you automatically "sir, we have inbound torpedo" or "sir, we have detected subroc launch".
So the message is a necessity.
We can debate at what moment this alert is given.
But from what CrazyIvan wrote we can infer that distance and noise are taken into account.

I don't know what is "rules of sub warfare" but i know that life of the sub and all the crew depends on each member of the crew. Including the acoustics. That's for shure. So they must not loose their attention even for 2 minutes as you said even if you're not at sonar battlestation.

If you have situational awareness, then nothing will surprise you at the last moment (except if an airplane or helicopter drops a torpedo right over your head).

The more torpedo detecting distance the more chances you avoid. It sounds unreal that 4 nm disatance safe enough. Not for guys inside the pressure hull.
And again what is the point in this message if you are tracking torpedo by yourself? And if you're not tracking that this message is still cheat even at 3 miles distance.

Avoidance depends on may factors.
How far the torpedo is, what speed is he going, at what moment was he activated, is there a thermal layer, how big is the acquisition cone of the torpedo, has your opponent fired only a snapshot or does he have a correct firing solution on you.
Evasive action is different from avoidance. Avoidance puts you out of harm's way all the while mainting tactical awareness. Evasive action is a last ditch effort to shake off the incoming weapon (which means going to maximum speed, doing radical manoeuvers, launching contermeasures, changeing depth and so on). And while doing this you are oblivous to what your target is doing.
To finish, CrazyIvan never said the TIW message would be given at a SPECIFIC distance. There is a certain latitude in this.

[Гена]

Сообщение от goldorak

No, CrazyIvan already said that for subrocs you would get a TIW message from quite far. That means that noise level AND distance are taken into account. And a subroc launch makes much more noise than a torpedo one.
So it is acceptable to get a subroc alert before a torpedo alert.

Of course it's acceptable but torpedonoise isn't taken into account.

Сообщение от goldorak

No if you remove completely TIW message thats not realistic one bit.
Think of it this way, you are the captain of the sub. Wether or not you're on the sonar station, on the tma station etc... there will be a moment when someone of your crew will inform you automatically "sir, we have inbound torpedo" or "sir, we have detected subroc launch".
So the message is a necessity.
We can debate at what moment this alert is given.
But from what CrazyIvan wrote we can infer that distance and noise are taken into account.

Yes man, exactly, acoustics immediately will inform you as soon as they will detect torp. But if you're tracking torpedo by yourself and "have situational awareness" there is no need for "TIW" absolutely.

Сообщение от goldorak

Avoidance depends on may factors.
How far the torpedo is, what speed is he going, at what moment was he activated, is there a thermal layer, how big is the acquisition cone of the torpedo, has your opponent fired only a snapshot or does he have a correct firing solution on you.
Evasive action is different from avoidance. Avoidance puts you out of harm's way all the while mainting tactical awareness. Evasive action is a last ditch effort to shake off the incoming weapon (which means going to maximum speed, doing radical manoeuvers, launching contermeasures, changeing depth and so on). And while doing this you are oblivous to what your target is doing.
To finish, CrazyIvan never said the TIW message would be given at a SPECIFIC distance. There is a certain latitude in this.

It is all about the meanings of words. I'm just don't know english as well. In any case the more torpedo detecting distance the more chances you will live.

[goldorak]

Сообщение от Гена

Of course it's acceptable but torpedonoise isn't taken into account.

And you know this how ? CrazyIvan wrote that TIW for subrocs launches would be given from far away, farther than torpedo launches.
That hints to the fact that NOISE, launch noise is being taken into account.

Yes man, exactly, acoustics immediately will inform you as soon as they will detect torp. But if you're tracking torpedo by yourself and "have situational awareness" there is no need for "TIW" absolutely.

Fair enough. Me, I still think that TIW message is necessary.
My opinion is that the TIW message complements your tracking skills on sonar. It is a danger alert message, and informs you of imminent danger nothing more nothing less. It doesn't tell you anything you haven't been able to see on sonar.

You on the other hand want a TIW to be signaled the moment the track appears on sonar. Independantly from wether the weapon represents a clear and present danger, imminent danger to the sub. I understand this point of view, and it was the original point of view of the modders.

But I still think the new choice is better even if that means that TIW for torpedoes are dealt differently from TIW messages for subroc launches.

It is all about the meanings of words. I'm just don't know english as well. In any case the more torpedo detecting distance the more chances you will live.

Well words are important. What I meant was that there are 2 main phases to defense, one in which you can take measures to avoid the weapon without compromising your stealth, your tactical advantage and so on, and a second phase where the weapon is locked on you so you need to take radical action.

In any case whatever the modders do, I think they do in the interest of having a good game. No one wants an impossibile game to play.

[Гена]

I mean torpedo propeller noise.
Of course in any case mod improves the game dramatically.

[Lau]

Hi Goldorak,

I have many different versions of RA_mod as well as a patch that you once released in the subsim forum. In order to see exactly what you see and try to contribute to this awesome work, could you please let me know where can I dowload the version you are using. In order to keep my self up to date, please let me know where will the new versions be released, posted for dowload and further testing?

I have tried to dowload the v1.0 from the link at begenning of this page, but did not managed to install it properly. Perhaps I should give it an other try.

Is this the RA_mod version that you are using...?

Thank you in advance for your kind assistance,

Lau

**************************************************

Here begins feedback concerning the contents of addition -Reinforce Alert-

For our forbidden colleagues...

================================================== ==========
Mod Download:

Part-1:
http://crazyivan.nextmail.ru/DWX_RA_...1_00.part1.rar

Part-2:
http://crazyivan.nextmail.ru/DWX_RA_...1_00.part2.rar

--------------------------------------
Sound Mods For DWX:

English Voice:
http://crazyivan.nextmail.ru/DWX_RA_...ENG1_Voice.rar

Russian Voice:
http://crazyivan.nextmail.ru/DWX_RA_...RUS2_Voice.rar

[CrazyIvan]

Now, the information on all added countries and classes became accessible in the classification menu of game.

Thanks Mr. -Jaf- for elimination it a problem.

[whiskey111]

I'm wonderring about active intercept sonar issue. As we know, there is a gap for active intercept - on the stern.
The main idea is to make torpedo undetected when it is attacking us from our stern side.
But due to this new issue we have a new unrealistic event - we can't hear DD/FFG (whatever else) which is pinging us on the stern side.

[CrazyIvan]

Сообщение от whiskey111

I'm wonderring about active intercept sonar issue. As we know, there is a gap for active intercept - on the stern.
The main idea is to make torpedo undetected when it is attacking us from our stern side.
But due to this new issue we have a new unrealistic event - we can't hear DD/FFG (whatever else) which is pinging us on the stern side.

The torpedo can find out by the active gauge on distance of 3000 meters.


But on Submarines the equipment which is established receives a signal on much more distance - more than 3000 m.

And if at a torpedo sensor control is established a distance in 3000 m, it means that this signal passes on considerably large distances.

It not so.
Do not confuse max ability of distance detect of a sensor control of a torpedo, and power of this signal.

Signal passes very much far.

[whiskey111]

You don't understand me
Now, when warship is pinging submarine (by active sonar) we can't hear the ping sound (when we are on the submarine) in situation when warship is on submarine's stern side.

[goldorak]

Сообщение от whiskey111

You don't understand me
Now, when warship is pinging submarine (by active sonar) we can't hear the ping sound (when we are on the submarine) in situation when warship is on submarine's stern side.

Why should the active intercept sensor have a 360 degree vision ?
In Lwami for instance, the active intercept has a dead zone astern. Do you have any souce that specificies that active intercepts have to have a 360 area without dead zones ?

There is nothing broken with the active intercept in RA.
There is only a dead zone that extends maybe 30 degrees from the stern on either side.